I am a former college instructor. Many of my students would have been better served outside of the institution.
BTW, I can't recommend this insightful book highly enough:
In the Basement of the Ivory Tower: Confessions of an Accidental Academic is a 2011 book by an adjunct professor of English, who writes under the pen name Professor X. It is based on an Atlantic Monthly article of the same title.[1] "Professor X teaches at a private college and at a community college in the northeastern United States"[2] and argues that "The idea that a university education is for everyone is a destructive myth."[1]
I too taught at a college (34 years) and watched as what were formerly called “students “ by the Admissions Director, become “customers,” under the influence of the “everyone should attend college” slogan. Suddenly, every kid who enrolled had to borrow the tuition money and we began offering mandatory remedial math (8th grade level) and remedial writing classes (paragraph writing). It is impossible to go from arithmetic to algebra and to progress from complete sentences to paragraphs in 15 weeks. And that fact had an interesting impact on all the other classes: they necessarily had to be dumbed down to accommodate this group of “customers.” The next step was easy: enter DEI and all the classes that supported it. Dietrich Bonhoeffer was right: once you become part of an institution you can lose your soul.
Totally agree with your comment. I will add on that even kids from good high schools with high gpa's, honor students included, are struggling with math, and have been for at least 20 years. My spouse is a retired chemistry professor and has seen the decline in math skills which has resulted in him having to teach them math, and how to use their calculators so they can do the chemistry. Also, they trust whatever number their calculator spits out at them. No concept of does this even make sense. The "remedial" piece is pervasive in everything.
Those remedial courses make a two year health profession degree (Assiciate Degree Nursing—graduates are RN eligible) into a 4 yr process.
Charlie Kirk said college degrees are about credentials. He is right. If you want/need a professional license to actually get paid, there is only one way to get it: through an accredited program, often teaching to the test.
About the trades: as people flock to the unions/trade programs to learn a marketable skill, the trades can now pick and choose and TEST those they allow into their apprenticeship programs. The lazy, bored, indifferent need not apply.
Speaking of “tradespeople”…My nieces who are in their late 30’s are married and have been married for many years to two men, who are “tradespeople”. One is a master mechanic, in charge of maintaining “fleet vehicles” for the Utility Company in San Diego County, CA. The other one is a journeyman electrician. These two guys can fix or build most things. For anything to do with plumbing the electrician calls upon his brother. My twin brother is in construction and can also build anything. My younger brother is a heavy equipment operator and raises grass fed beef on the ranch where he and my SIL live. My Dad was a cowboy and raised pasture cattle. I am the only person on my family with a “degree”, albeit an AA in Liberal Arts. These people have always made a ‘decent living’ and have rarely been ‘unemployed’.
Sometime, just for fun, contrast one of those 2 year wonder nurses (not my term) with a 3 year hospital trained nurse and see which one you’d rather have taking care of you.
“Knowledge of math” is overrated. Basic Math skills, knowledge of basic “computational” skills, are important. But unless one is pursuing a “degree or career path” that involves any level of math, a ‘basic proficiency’ in math will suffice. The emphasis in the STEM subjects has been pimped to the max IMO. Many students just aren’t cut out for STEM jobs or careers.
I got an AA degree in liberal arts (and managed to never take a math course) from a community college and then went on to study interior and environmental design at a CA State University. I quit after three semesters into that program. I found it lame, all hypothetical, not reality based, and not relevant at all as to how you would run a real design project. (My mother was an interior designer so I had been ‘shadowing’ her for most of my life). I got a job as a “design assistant” to an interior designer, then worked my way up and eventually had my own “interior and landscape design consultant” company. My basic knowledge of math that I learned thorough high school was enough to do my job.
If a higher degree of math skills and such was required on any given project, I sought the expertise of the contractors and sub contractors I worked with.
Part of the issue is the students today lack even "basic" math skills. K-12 need to refocus on the basics. In the early 70s my elementary school and school system was trialing teaching "new math". It was a complete disaster. Multiplication - no one understood. The teacher was frustrated because she had to learn the new system. We as students were frustrated and were feeling like we were failing....because we were! At parent teacher conferences my dad begged her to go back to the old way - learning the multiplication time tables and flashcards. Viola! Everyone got it.
I remember having to teach "estimating". What do you think the answer is before you work the problem? Does your answer make sense? etc. It always took a few longer to get the hang of it, but once they did, grades improved dramatically.
El Gato’s ‘stack yesterday was also about the uselessness of a college degree, college “experience,” how dumbed down it all is & all the midwits it has churned out the past few decades.
Back in my day (1976-1980) I feel like it still meant something, it was a helluva good time & colleges still taught meaningful classes. You were also considered an idiot if you didn’t graduate in 4 years…. Compare that to today where “college” drags on & on as an endless “career”.
I fully agree that today, what college has become is not worth it. 1st grandchild coming in Oct & I’ll be curious what son & DIL will think about college as an absolute.
My son managed to complete a 4 year degree in a meaningless major which attracted him because during no class was it necessary for him to go to the library.
Freshman year, my oldest took a psychology class & thought he might like to major in that. I said no way José - you can minor in it or double major in it but that will NOT be your sole degree. Since we were paying for college, he couldn’t argue
I have always thought that psychology, sociology, social work, criminal justice, and all the other social “sciences” are not academic subjects and should be removed from the curriculum. There is nothing scientific about them.
I earned my bachelor's degree 40 years ago when education was still an education. I was forced to take sociology as part of my gen ed class. Professor was a pompous moron who I fought with every class. It did "round out" my education as it showed me anyone, including a doctor or Professor, can be an absolute moron.
My hubby (and I) attended a regional university well regarded for its criminal justice (CJ) major. He was in a fraternity that he is still involved with the alumni group that had a lot of CJ majors in it. Lots went into law enforcement. (most of his friends have since retired or left due to the BS) It was kind of a mini-law degree at the time. I went with my son's Boy Scout troop to visit our local PD (late 2000's) and at the time, they said you needed a CJ or related degree to even apply. Fast forward to today - I participated in that same local PD's Citizen's Police Academy in 2022 and learned that they have had to drop the degree requirement due to the shortage of officers and applicants.
Both my kids loved high school psychology class and were good at it. One heavily wanted it for college, but I sat him down and said you will need to get a doctorate for the degree to be meaningful. You don't like school that much, right? He, of course, loved his video games and liked the ones where he saved people with his smarts. He was also a good lifeguard and had saved a couple people. I said, "How about Emergency Management?" He agreed, we found the right college, and he now has a dream job at age 31 with only an upward trajectory. One of my best parenting advices that was actually taken.
Yes, my degree is in Psychology and quite honestly, other than honing the skill of researching , I found it to be boring and the field itself, highly questionable .
I have thought for many years that psychology should not be taught as an academic discipline. Most psych majors at the undergraduate level only choose that major because they want to find out about themselves. It's a navel gazing exercise. Then the field was one of the first to go Woke in the social sciences. I don't mean to disparage your degree, but it's not particularly rigorous. Most people I know who took advanced degrees simply sent out surveys, collated them, and called it a dissertation. My criticism is mostly directed at the clinicians. But I remember that during the whole Gitmo torture years, it was two psychologists who pitched the torture regime to the Bush administration.
I took a couple of psych classes in college and found them really interesting, but learned that an undergrad degree had little value so jettisoned that as an option. Being broke 4 years was enough for me. My parents had no money so I worked and got scholarships and ate a lot of ramen. But this was the 80's when working your way through was still possible. Had a room-mate one year who did get her degree in psychology and ended up as a probation officer (after a year of bartending and job hunting) and worked her way up to a management role, just retired, so guess there were a few options, just not many.
One thing I learned that they teach in industrial engineering (but not electrical) is how to weigh return on investment. (I had to study up on it to pass my registered-engineer's exam after I was out-of-school.) The most valuable revelation to me was how important it is to "take the loss now" instead of "wishing" it will "come back." The thesis is that "money/opportunity" now has a calculable advantage over "money/opportunity" deferred. (I had occasion to research Murphy's Laws and found Las Vegas' Law: Never bet on a loser because you believe his luck is bound to change.) No matter when you come to the realization: start then/start over.
So, that would equate to taking kind donations to your child's college account and helping them get on the housing ladder instead.
I love these sorts of theories, so I want to get this straight. Because in another scenario, I have seen that applied to something where you would lose something like a job, (income, pension, though not health insurance because we have the National Death Service for that), for not wearing a mask, and then as result of taking the risk inherent in that choice, enjoy both better respiratory health AND better income.
I'm of the camp that believes "good colleges still exist" and that "good careers can still be had." I'd say it depends on the child. And I'd even go so far as to say that "home ownership" doesn't have to be an absolute either--if an alternative makes sense.
But I see where you're going: if you get past the risk, you may enjoy an unexpected, and certainly unpredicted, reward. But I'll go further yet--because I'm in that mode/mood--and say that WHATEVER choice is made is NOT irrecoverable BECAUSE "There is God, Who made us and loves us and wants us to return."
a luxury only a few really need. I remember seeing a report once that said something like this, 85% of the parents of high school graduates believe they need a university degree to be successful, 51% of high school graduates believe they need a university degree to be successful, and only about 25% of the jobs out there actually require one. How did we get to such a huge disconnect?
All about timing. I graduated undergrad in 1987 when a college degree DID give you a leg up in the job market. (business degree) At the time there was a tilt towards degree-required positions vs the number of grads. (never mind that the degree requirement was not always truly necessary - but at the time it was justified as 'signaling' - at the very least it showed that you could finish what you started and that you had some level of intellect and discipline to get through it) But this 'everyone goes to college' rhetoric that took over has now tilted it in the direction of too many degrees chasing too few positions that require a degree.
That being said SOME level of post-secondary education is still valuable. My daughter got an associates in medical coding/HC administration. My friend's son got a technical cert in HVAC. A friend of my son's got an associates in automotive tech. All are making good money and zero debt but none of those are positions you can get walking out the door with a HS diploma.
I have a college degree and worked for 45 years as an RN in cardiac surgery. I never made more than $90,000, and that amount was only for one year, with most years far less. My retirement is SS and $1200 per month pension. My brother graduated from high school and works for a school district in maintenance. He makes over $180,00 per year and his retirement will be in the $170,000 range. Who is the fool?
Speaking from personal experience. thank God for good RNs. in my experience, they usually know more than the so-called expert doctors. I had a very experienced older lady RN prevent me from being overdosed, while I was in the hospital because she was capable of reading and understanding my charts. the doctors had prescribed the wrong meds, she got the problem resolved, I would say, she did not have a fancy degree, like the doctor did, but she knew her stuff, God bless her.
I'm glad someone caught the mistake. Causing harm to a patient is our greatest fear. I was very lucky to work with exceptional surgeons, nursing staff, and ancillary staff.
While there may have been a few instances of nurses being disciplined for questioning physicians, it would be very rare. It's our job to second-check any medication before we administer it. Many years ago, physicians were more resistant to being questioned; now, not so much.
Bless you! We have doctors strikes right now in the UK, and I am prepared to bet that most things will be tickety-boo because for all the deaths possible from the interruption, there will also be the upstream benefit of doctors not causing death directly through incompetence.
I'm in the midwestern US, and nearly no healthcare professionals are unionized outside of large cities. I think in California and New York, it's more common, but we don't have socialized, one-payer medicine here. Strikes are localized and very rare.
Of the survey choices offered, I think "a luxury only a few really need" probably comes closest. I think we really need to look beyond "college" and look closely at the schools and programs. My guess is that we'd see better outcomes for highly motivated engineering students at MIT than we would for average students studying music theory at Rider University.
Students; know yourself. Parents; know your kids. You are going up against school administrators and bankers. Don't walk into a slaughter blindfolded.
We too, wanted “better” for our now adult kids. We insisted on college with some requirements. They MUST qualify for our state’s “lottery scholarship” (3.0 average or 21 on ACT-no great effort required for that), no loans allowed and they would work summers to pay half the remaining balance.
Our daughter graduated and took a job as a police dispatcher, which she loved, until she had children and stayed home.
Our son worked in an auto repair shop from age 15 through his time in college. Working that part-time job he built on his natural mechanical/engineering inclinations, learned welding and fabrication and generally figured out how to DO things.
Seeing no utility in the engineering degree he was working toward, he dropped out of college after three years. He works in an industrial maintenance environment making more than six figures.
Unfortunately in both cases, my children’s college time was useless. Thank goodness our family paid our parts of the cost with cash so there’s no stupid debt tied to the “mistake”. This college scam has crippled many of our young adults with what may be a lifetime of debt. So sad. We were sold a bill of goods.
College teaches a lot more than academic subjects. It's the worlds best dating service!
Perhaps it depends on at what age they ship you off to college? Some of us just aren't ready to be adults at 16! So parking us at college and pretending we are learning stuff isn't such a bad plan.
What's insane is being 50+ and having employers still *care* if you have a college degree or not. 🤦♂️
Buy your own computer, teach yourself to write software, form your own business... yes, that's far more useful than that piece of paper from a college.
I’m 58. In a recent interview I was asked to explain why my GPA improved so much when I went back to school the second time (in my 30s). For an Assistant Principal job. Yes. They asked about my GPA from over 30 years ago. When I said “I grew up,” they said “there has to be more to it than that.” There wasn’t. I initially went to college to party and have fun. Which I did. I went back for my Masters and studied what interested me. I was a wife and a mom. I was a grown up. No real mystery. No epiphany. Just maturity.
My grades in college were abysmal. Considering I was a top student, excellent at taking tests, school was never a challenge... then college... once at college, classes were just something you did during the day. My whole focus was socialization (and my grades reflected it). My college grades were not even close to a reflection of my ability.
From my first hand experience, that "piece of paper" is completely meaningless. You might as well just get a piece of paper that says "I'm now four years older".
A huge improvement would be for HR departments to admit they have no idea who to hire and get them to drop the meaningless requirement of "Required: Bachelor's Degree".
College used to be a great dating service. Many women attended, many decades ago, to get their Mrs. Degree, as the joke went. But today, they don’t date. They attend formal dances with their friends, if they go at all. Eventually, my college gave up having formal dances altogether. The last one I attended featured girls twerking. They don’t dress to impress the opposite sex. On the other hand, boys aren’t going to college anymore. Now it looks like the girls will follow that trend.
Agree Bro. I love what Mike Rowe says about the trades:
“Mike Rowe has highlighted that the majority of jobs today do not require a four-year college degree, emphasizing the vast number of vacant positions in the skilled trades. As of July 2024, the American economy had 7.7 million job openings, up from less than 5 million a decade ago. Rowe argues that the push for young people to pursue expensive college degrees, combined with the removal of shop classes from high schools, has led to a significant skills gap and a stigma around vocational careers. He points out that there are millions of jobs available in the trades, such as welding, plumbing, and electrician work, which are often overlooked by young adults who are more inclined towards white-collar jobs. This skills mismatch is further exacerbated by the fact that 74% of American 18- to 20-year-olds perceive a stigma over choosing vocational school instead of college, and 79% said their parents wanted them to pursue a college education after high school, according to a McKinsey survey.“
I have reinvented myself at least four times! I just keep learning new skills and reconfiguring old ones.
Just yesterday, a friend asked me if I would run the “back office” of her real estate business! I can literally do that blindfolded. I ran a highly successful wine distribution and importation company for over 27 years. I can learn the basics of real estate (raw land, mineral rights, contract law, etc.) because I have the wisdom and experience. Business is business. Cash flow is king. If cash is flowing, you are running a going concern 🙁
Yep! It’s the damn truth. There was only one choice in the survey! A fecking waste of time and money!
Why would a person such as moi say this? Some would look at me and rightfully call me a nutjob hypocrite. I have three fecking degrees! Yes, and I have utilized each one to benefit my life!
However, I went to learn specific things and then used the skills taught to run a successful business.
Today is a completely different situation. They no longer teach anything useful! Take medical school. They teach medical protocols which involve DEI and prescribing poisons made by satanists!
Take that $40,000-$100,000 seed money and start a business!
I started a business. Very few customers, but a business. (Actually, I think that makes me an artist.) They must teach some things in business school, probably in the very first year, that would help my cluelessness. (Not coincidentally, I have one of those someecards.com cards on my fridge that reads "I'd do anything to lose 10 lbs, except eat healthy and work out.")
My hair cutter’s son went into construction trade with a union backing. He’s only in his 20’s and buying a house and driving nice vehicles. My grandson is going into plant sciences. Huge college cost at a top university on the East coast. Please, pretty please, tell me that the future is “Plants”. (We’ve been through the “Plastics” thingy).
I love this. If we know how to grow our own healthy food and repair the soil we know a lot about biology (and all the systems related to plants) and survival. Bonus: The connection to Nature is a connection to God.
Thinkin' we DO know how, we just forgot for convenience sake.
Also thinkin' that "forgetfulness" was brought on by Big Food, Big Ag, Big Pharma, Big Money and schools that don't educate, they indoctrinate or promote memorizing as learning!
They've been teaching WHAT to think, not HOW to think.
Back to the Basics.
What makes dirt soil?
Cow poop! Chicken poop. Sheep poop! (The best actually as no weed seeds get through THAT system!)
My spouse and I are college grads. Mandatory if you want to be a teacher. My kids are also college grads. One is a teacher also and the other has his own business and works remote. He is doing better financially than all three of us put together lol. College was a blast when I went back in the 80’s. There was no DEI, we paid no mind to politics, no protests or riots. Just some of the best times of my life with crazy fun memories. My son hated it but met his future wife there. My daughter made life long friends. Both escaped, barely, the brainwashing liberal professors who only knew to spew racist shit but couldn’t operate a standard projector or Smartboard LOL.
One of my favorite college grifts comes out of the alumni office, who after collecting all your book and tuition money over 4plus years, will track you down no matter how many times you move and demand more of your money in annual donations. Fo what reason? I don’t know. It has something to do with loyalty to your alma mater that leads you to continue sending your money to them.
We moved to a new house 2 years after my daughter graduated from college. SHE gets mail at our new address. She's never lived here. Yet she gets mail here from them (and she gets the SAME mail at her address) regularly.
I chose "other" as I couldn't fit my response easily in the other categories. I believe about 50% of students in college do not need to be. But it is a choice each person and family needs to make based on what's important to them.
"Plumbers can charge $300 just to jiggle a handle, while liberal arts grads are Googling “entry-level jobs that don’t require experience, skills, or hope.”
The useless Columbia Harvard Ivy league Stanford garbage politically correct DEI degrees get them what they deserve; $15.00 dollar jobs serving latte capucchinos at Starbucks or some other wizard coffee palace.
You are spot on; trades, overall, make more money, have much less debt and are needed everywhere.
I voted Other. I have thought for some time now that a college degree has become the equivalent in value to what a high school degree was when I was young. Except the high school degree could be obtained at taxpayers' expense. It's criminal that middle class families (including now grandparents) are shelling out large sums of money for a degree that doesn't prepare a young adult to support themselves. And please add to the list of costs of college, that the credit card companies prey on the students and start them out of the gate with credit card debt. I like the idea of a young person having the option to sit down with parents and figure out which route would best help them take care of themselves in the world and hopefully it will also be something they enjoy doing. But also to know that we no longer are a world where you have to pick one profession for life. Although to the latter point, I've found that it's difficult to change without experience, which you can only get by working in the field that you'd like to enter! When I was 18, I just walked door-to-door and asked at nearby businesses if they were hiring. I learned on the job and the more aptitude and willingness I showed, the more responsibility they gave me. I have a friend who landed in her line of work the same way. Probably got brought on to the business by a friend's recommendation. And I do have a Bachelor's degree - never thought about the origin of that before you mentioned it, Jenna! Anyway, when I was young, many professional environments required it. It's not my generation's world anymore - the young people have new adaptations to make and we can't impose our generation's ideas about the pathway - but we can help with guidance on work ethic, discipline, ingenuity, respect, teamwork, etc., which are building blocks to caring for yourself in the business world.
Happy Friday everyone! It's a damn shame that this is what college degrees have come down to. Just a ticket into the soulless corporate world.
Both my wife and I have careers that required college degrees, especially my wife that is a veterinarian, so it's difficult not to worry about our childrens' futures and how they are going to navigate this ever-changing crazy landscape. What if one or both of them want to be doctors but don't want to put themselves through corporate educational indoctrination and poisonous shots? It is becoming exceedingly more difficult to keep your soul while living in this upside down system.
Hopefully we can steer this ship back into the right direction. I think we can with enough of us pushing back with our light. Thanks for the laughs as always and have a great weekend! 🤗
I was just asked to write another vaccine exemption for one of my daughter’s friends in nursing school. The irony is, the hospital where she is doing rounds no longer requires the Covid shot, but she must be up-to-date on everything else and thankfully has forsaken the whole sorry lot of them. Just crazy of all the places still pushing this poison… 🤬
It's blood boiling! It's also ironic that they are asking a writer instead of a doctor for a vaccine exemption lol. And the phrase "up-to-date" for these shots as if they are just another social requirement like our mortgage payments and credit card debt. Shoot me!
"For decades, the punchline of the wasted-degree joke was the meathead majoring in underwater basket weaving." Absolutely, back in the day I heard it used too many times to count!
I am a self-taught hairstylist. I have been cutting my husband‘s hair for almost 30 years and my daughters’ for more than 20… I justify ALL SORTS of purchases with the “money I’ve saved us”🤣
Funny thing, when I was homeschooling my three, we’d see guys sweating like oxen doing road work. In the south. In July. I kind of regret doing this but I’d usually say something to the kids along the lines of, “THOSE poor guys should’ve paid more attention in class. They’re wishing they’d turned in all their homework so they could work in the AC.”
The roofers who did my roof started at 7:30am and were done and cleaned up by 11:30am. I never got a full count, but there were somewhere around 12 on the crew. Owners were right there with them. The entire crew was of Hispanic descent, but the foreman was a Mexican who'd been here for 25 years. The owners all said it'd been a long time since they'd seen a "white boy" willing to work that hard. In my 20s, I did hard work like that in the oil field and I sensed the same ethos in this crew: "Yes, it's hard, but if we don't do our part, it'll just make it harder for everyone else, so let's ALL work hard and get this sumbitch OVER with!"
With, please God, millions leaving, "opportunities" for soul-satisfying "hard" work will abound. The oil field brought me down to earth about going back to college to study something "real." (I screwed it up of course. ;^) )
I wonder if we have the same friend. His son is doing extremely well in the underwater welding business. Another friend’s son in underwater photography. They always find their way ☺️.
I am a former college instructor. Many of my students would have been better served outside of the institution.
BTW, I can't recommend this insightful book highly enough:
In the Basement of the Ivory Tower: Confessions of an Accidental Academic is a 2011 book by an adjunct professor of English, who writes under the pen name Professor X. It is based on an Atlantic Monthly article of the same title.[1] "Professor X teaches at a private college and at a community college in the northeastern United States"[2] and argues that "The idea that a university education is for everyone is a destructive myth."[1]
I too taught at a college (34 years) and watched as what were formerly called “students “ by the Admissions Director, become “customers,” under the influence of the “everyone should attend college” slogan. Suddenly, every kid who enrolled had to borrow the tuition money and we began offering mandatory remedial math (8th grade level) and remedial writing classes (paragraph writing). It is impossible to go from arithmetic to algebra and to progress from complete sentences to paragraphs in 15 weeks. And that fact had an interesting impact on all the other classes: they necessarily had to be dumbed down to accommodate this group of “customers.” The next step was easy: enter DEI and all the classes that supported it. Dietrich Bonhoeffer was right: once you become part of an institution you can lose your soul.
Totally agree with your comment. I will add on that even kids from good high schools with high gpa's, honor students included, are struggling with math, and have been for at least 20 years. My spouse is a retired chemistry professor and has seen the decline in math skills which has resulted in him having to teach them math, and how to use their calculators so they can do the chemistry. Also, they trust whatever number their calculator spits out at them. No concept of does this even make sense. The "remedial" piece is pervasive in everything.
And no one knows how to count change anymore. It’s SO easy. Calculators ruined basic arithmetic.
Somewhere else, I wondered aloud "if we will ever learn the true cost of technology." Call me prescient (as in pre-scientist).
Agree completely!
So true!! This is not ok!!
Those remedial courses make a two year health profession degree (Assiciate Degree Nursing—graduates are RN eligible) into a 4 yr process.
Charlie Kirk said college degrees are about credentials. He is right. If you want/need a professional license to actually get paid, there is only one way to get it: through an accredited program, often teaching to the test.
About the trades: as people flock to the unions/trade programs to learn a marketable skill, the trades can now pick and choose and TEST those they allow into their apprenticeship programs. The lazy, bored, indifferent need not apply.
Speaking of “tradespeople”…My nieces who are in their late 30’s are married and have been married for many years to two men, who are “tradespeople”. One is a master mechanic, in charge of maintaining “fleet vehicles” for the Utility Company in San Diego County, CA. The other one is a journeyman electrician. These two guys can fix or build most things. For anything to do with plumbing the electrician calls upon his brother. My twin brother is in construction and can also build anything. My younger brother is a heavy equipment operator and raises grass fed beef on the ranch where he and my SIL live. My Dad was a cowboy and raised pasture cattle. I am the only person on my family with a “degree”, albeit an AA in Liberal Arts. These people have always made a ‘decent living’ and have rarely been ‘unemployed’.
Sometime, just for fun, contrast one of those 2 year wonder nurses (not my term) with a 3 year hospital trained nurse and see which one you’d rather have taking care of you.
“Knowledge of math” is overrated. Basic Math skills, knowledge of basic “computational” skills, are important. But unless one is pursuing a “degree or career path” that involves any level of math, a ‘basic proficiency’ in math will suffice. The emphasis in the STEM subjects has been pimped to the max IMO. Many students just aren’t cut out for STEM jobs or careers.
I got an AA degree in liberal arts (and managed to never take a math course) from a community college and then went on to study interior and environmental design at a CA State University. I quit after three semesters into that program. I found it lame, all hypothetical, not reality based, and not relevant at all as to how you would run a real design project. (My mother was an interior designer so I had been ‘shadowing’ her for most of my life). I got a job as a “design assistant” to an interior designer, then worked my way up and eventually had my own “interior and landscape design consultant” company. My basic knowledge of math that I learned thorough high school was enough to do my job.
If a higher degree of math skills and such was required on any given project, I sought the expertise of the contractors and sub contractors I worked with.
Part of the issue is the students today lack even "basic" math skills. K-12 need to refocus on the basics. In the early 70s my elementary school and school system was trialing teaching "new math". It was a complete disaster. Multiplication - no one understood. The teacher was frustrated because she had to learn the new system. We as students were frustrated and were feeling like we were failing....because we were! At parent teacher conferences my dad begged her to go back to the old way - learning the multiplication time tables and flashcards. Viola! Everyone got it.
Glad you were able to forge your own path!
I remember having to teach "estimating". What do you think the answer is before you work the problem? Does your answer make sense? etc. It always took a few longer to get the hang of it, but once they did, grades improved dramatically.
Welcome to Common Core.
This is spot on!!!! "It is impossible to go from arithmetic to algebra and to progress from complete sentences to paragraphs in 15 weeks."
Can I lower the tone and recommend John Grisham's The Rooster Bar? Great take on the scam of college/university.
Yes! Good read!
El Gato’s ‘stack yesterday was also about the uselessness of a college degree, college “experience,” how dumbed down it all is & all the midwits it has churned out the past few decades.
Back in my day (1976-1980) I feel like it still meant something, it was a helluva good time & colleges still taught meaningful classes. You were also considered an idiot if you didn’t graduate in 4 years…. Compare that to today where “college” drags on & on as an endless “career”.
I fully agree that today, what college has become is not worth it. 1st grandchild coming in Oct & I’ll be curious what son & DIL will think about college as an absolute.
My son managed to complete a 4 year degree in a meaningless major which attracted him because during no class was it necessary for him to go to the library.
Freshman year, my oldest took a psychology class & thought he might like to major in that. I said no way José - you can minor in it or double major in it but that will NOT be your sole degree. Since we were paying for college, he couldn’t argue
I have always thought that psychology, sociology, social work, criminal justice, and all the other social “sciences” are not academic subjects and should be removed from the curriculum. There is nothing scientific about them.
I earned my bachelor's degree 40 years ago when education was still an education. I was forced to take sociology as part of my gen ed class. Professor was a pompous moron who I fought with every class. It did "round out" my education as it showed me anyone, including a doctor or Professor, can be an absolute moron.
My hubby (and I) attended a regional university well regarded for its criminal justice (CJ) major. He was in a fraternity that he is still involved with the alumni group that had a lot of CJ majors in it. Lots went into law enforcement. (most of his friends have since retired or left due to the BS) It was kind of a mini-law degree at the time. I went with my son's Boy Scout troop to visit our local PD (late 2000's) and at the time, they said you needed a CJ or related degree to even apply. Fast forward to today - I participated in that same local PD's Citizen's Police Academy in 2022 and learned that they have had to drop the degree requirement due to the shortage of officers and applicants.
Yep.
Both my kids loved high school psychology class and were good at it. One heavily wanted it for college, but I sat him down and said you will need to get a doctorate for the degree to be meaningful. You don't like school that much, right? He, of course, loved his video games and liked the ones where he saved people with his smarts. He was also a good lifeguard and had saved a couple people. I said, "How about Emergency Management?" He agreed, we found the right college, and he now has a dream job at age 31 with only an upward trajectory. One of my best parenting advices that was actually taken.
Do you have a career-counseling website?
Brilliant!
Yes, my degree is in Psychology and quite honestly, other than honing the skill of researching , I found it to be boring and the field itself, highly questionable .
I have thought for many years that psychology should not be taught as an academic discipline. Most psych majors at the undergraduate level only choose that major because they want to find out about themselves. It's a navel gazing exercise. Then the field was one of the first to go Woke in the social sciences. I don't mean to disparage your degree, but it's not particularly rigorous. Most people I know who took advanced degrees simply sent out surveys, collated them, and called it a dissertation. My criticism is mostly directed at the clinicians. But I remember that during the whole Gitmo torture years, it was two psychologists who pitched the torture regime to the Bush administration.
I took a couple of psych classes in college and found them really interesting, but learned that an undergrad degree had little value so jettisoned that as an option. Being broke 4 years was enough for me. My parents had no money so I worked and got scholarships and ate a lot of ramen. But this was the 80's when working your way through was still possible. Had a room-mate one year who did get her degree in psychology and ended up as a probation officer (after a year of bartending and job hunting) and worked her way up to a management role, just retired, so guess there were a few options, just not many.
And you paid for it?
I did not, but his father did.
Wow!
Ah, the unfortunate misfits. Their biggest mistake was university. They would have been so much more productive without it.
One thing I learned that they teach in industrial engineering (but not electrical) is how to weigh return on investment. (I had to study up on it to pass my registered-engineer's exam after I was out-of-school.) The most valuable revelation to me was how important it is to "take the loss now" instead of "wishing" it will "come back." The thesis is that "money/opportunity" now has a calculable advantage over "money/opportunity" deferred. (I had occasion to research Murphy's Laws and found Las Vegas' Law: Never bet on a loser because you believe his luck is bound to change.) No matter when you come to the realization: start then/start over.
So, that would equate to taking kind donations to your child's college account and helping them get on the housing ladder instead.
I love these sorts of theories, so I want to get this straight. Because in another scenario, I have seen that applied to something where you would lose something like a job, (income, pension, though not health insurance because we have the National Death Service for that), for not wearing a mask, and then as result of taking the risk inherent in that choice, enjoy both better respiratory health AND better income.
I'm of the camp that believes "good colleges still exist" and that "good careers can still be had." I'd say it depends on the child. And I'd even go so far as to say that "home ownership" doesn't have to be an absolute either--if an alternative makes sense.
But I see where you're going: if you get past the risk, you may enjoy an unexpected, and certainly unpredicted, reward. But I'll go further yet--because I'm in that mode/mood--and say that WHATEVER choice is made is NOT irrecoverable BECAUSE "There is God, Who made us and loves us and wants us to return."
Collegeresults.org grades colleges. Their baseline for graduation rate is 6 years!
Yeah. No. I told my kids: Do it in
4 years or you are paying for it yourself. Both done in 4 years.
Another stack on this today.
https://billricejr.substack.com/p/college-is-a-racket-by-the-numbers?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=1086691&post_id=169181743&utm_campaign=email-post-title&isFreemail=true&r=2o19yg&triedRedirect=true&utm_medium=email
a luxury only a few really need. I remember seeing a report once that said something like this, 85% of the parents of high school graduates believe they need a university degree to be successful, 51% of high school graduates believe they need a university degree to be successful, and only about 25% of the jobs out there actually require one. How did we get to such a huge disconnect?
Agree.
All about timing. I graduated undergrad in 1987 when a college degree DID give you a leg up in the job market. (business degree) At the time there was a tilt towards degree-required positions vs the number of grads. (never mind that the degree requirement was not always truly necessary - but at the time it was justified as 'signaling' - at the very least it showed that you could finish what you started and that you had some level of intellect and discipline to get through it) But this 'everyone goes to college' rhetoric that took over has now tilted it in the direction of too many degrees chasing too few positions that require a degree.
That being said SOME level of post-secondary education is still valuable. My daughter got an associates in medical coding/HC administration. My friend's son got a technical cert in HVAC. A friend of my son's got an associates in automotive tech. All are making good money and zero debt but none of those are positions you can get walking out the door with a HS diploma.
Thx Janet!
I have a college degree and worked for 45 years as an RN in cardiac surgery. I never made more than $90,000, and that amount was only for one year, with most years far less. My retirement is SS and $1200 per month pension. My brother graduated from high school and works for a school district in maintenance. He makes over $180,00 per year and his retirement will be in the $170,000 range. Who is the fool?
Victoria- but the loving compassionate care you no doubt gave your patients for all those years is priceless.
I did love my job.
Speaking from personal experience. thank God for good RNs. in my experience, they usually know more than the so-called expert doctors. I had a very experienced older lady RN prevent me from being overdosed, while I was in the hospital because she was capable of reading and understanding my charts. the doctors had prescribed the wrong meds, she got the problem resolved, I would say, she did not have a fancy degree, like the doctor did, but she knew her stuff, God bless her.
I'm glad someone caught the mistake. Causing harm to a patient is our greatest fear. I was very lucky to work with exceptional surgeons, nursing staff, and ancillary staff.
If you followed up, you might find that she was "disciplined" for interfering: "It's not nice to fool with doctors' nature."
While there may have been a few instances of nurses being disciplined for questioning physicians, it would be very rare. It's our job to second-check any medication before we administer it. Many years ago, physicians were more resistant to being questioned; now, not so much.
Bless you! We have doctors strikes right now in the UK, and I am prepared to bet that most things will be tickety-boo because for all the deaths possible from the interruption, there will also be the upstream benefit of doctors not causing death directly through incompetence.
I'm in the midwestern US, and nearly no healthcare professionals are unionized outside of large cities. I think in California and New York, it's more common, but we don't have socialized, one-payer medicine here. Strikes are localized and very rare.
Of the survey choices offered, I think "a luxury only a few really need" probably comes closest. I think we really need to look beyond "college" and look closely at the schools and programs. My guess is that we'd see better outcomes for highly motivated engineering students at MIT than we would for average students studying music theory at Rider University.
Students; know yourself. Parents; know your kids. You are going up against school administrators and bankers. Don't walk into a slaughter blindfolded.
Very well put👏
That is sobering, but, I reckon, bang on!
We too, wanted “better” for our now adult kids. We insisted on college with some requirements. They MUST qualify for our state’s “lottery scholarship” (3.0 average or 21 on ACT-no great effort required for that), no loans allowed and they would work summers to pay half the remaining balance.
Our daughter graduated and took a job as a police dispatcher, which she loved, until she had children and stayed home.
Our son worked in an auto repair shop from age 15 through his time in college. Working that part-time job he built on his natural mechanical/engineering inclinations, learned welding and fabrication and generally figured out how to DO things.
Seeing no utility in the engineering degree he was working toward, he dropped out of college after three years. He works in an industrial maintenance environment making more than six figures.
Unfortunately in both cases, my children’s college time was useless. Thank goodness our family paid our parts of the cost with cash so there’s no stupid debt tied to the “mistake”. This college scam has crippled many of our young adults with what may be a lifetime of debt. So sad. We were sold a bill of goods.
Sounds like it worked out for you guys!👏👏👏
College teaches a lot more than academic subjects. It's the worlds best dating service!
Perhaps it depends on at what age they ship you off to college? Some of us just aren't ready to be adults at 16! So parking us at college and pretending we are learning stuff isn't such a bad plan.
What's insane is being 50+ and having employers still *care* if you have a college degree or not. 🤦♂️
Buy your own computer, teach yourself to write software, form your own business... yes, that's far more useful than that piece of paper from a college.
I’m 58. In a recent interview I was asked to explain why my GPA improved so much when I went back to school the second time (in my 30s). For an Assistant Principal job. Yes. They asked about my GPA from over 30 years ago. When I said “I grew up,” they said “there has to be more to it than that.” There wasn’t. I initially went to college to party and have fun. Which I did. I went back for my Masters and studied what interested me. I was a wife and a mom. I was a grown up. No real mystery. No epiphany. Just maturity.
Absolutely! Maturity is a huge factor!
My grades in college were abysmal. Considering I was a top student, excellent at taking tests, school was never a challenge... then college... once at college, classes were just something you did during the day. My whole focus was socialization (and my grades reflected it). My college grades were not even close to a reflection of my ability.
From my first hand experience, that "piece of paper" is completely meaningless. You might as well just get a piece of paper that says "I'm now four years older".
Same. “I’m four years older and I survived the BS. Wheeee! Now hire me!” And the did that, too lol.
A huge improvement would be for HR departments to admit they have no idea who to hire and get them to drop the meaningless requirement of "Required: Bachelor's Degree".
College used to be a great dating service. Many women attended, many decades ago, to get their Mrs. Degree, as the joke went. But today, they don’t date. They attend formal dances with their friends, if they go at all. Eventually, my college gave up having formal dances altogether. The last one I attended featured girls twerking. They don’t dress to impress the opposite sex. On the other hand, boys aren’t going to college anymore. Now it looks like the girls will follow that trend.
Hmm... dancing has changed a bit since I was in college.
Yes, getting the "Mrs degree" has been an age old concept!
I admit for my daughter it also was a "finishing school" for lack of a better term. We were very protective of her and she flourished at college.
Depends on your life goals IMO . To go to college, to just go…. is a waste of time , money and energy . Best to learn a trade.
Agree Bro. I love what Mike Rowe says about the trades:
“Mike Rowe has highlighted that the majority of jobs today do not require a four-year college degree, emphasizing the vast number of vacant positions in the skilled trades. As of July 2024, the American economy had 7.7 million job openings, up from less than 5 million a decade ago. Rowe argues that the push for young people to pursue expensive college degrees, combined with the removal of shop classes from high schools, has led to a significant skills gap and a stigma around vocational careers. He points out that there are millions of jobs available in the trades, such as welding, plumbing, and electrician work, which are often overlooked by young adults who are more inclined towards white-collar jobs. This skills mismatch is further exacerbated by the fact that 74% of American 18- to 20-year-olds perceive a stigma over choosing vocational school instead of college, and 79% said their parents wanted them to pursue a college education after high school, according to a McKinsey survey.“
I was a school counselor for years. As I told many students, getting a good HVAC guy in a hurry is often a challenge. Getting a lawyer? Not so much.
Yep! Learn a trade and start a business!
I have reinvented myself at least four times! I just keep learning new skills and reconfiguring old ones.
Just yesterday, a friend asked me if I would run the “back office” of her real estate business! I can literally do that blindfolded. I ran a highly successful wine distribution and importation company for over 27 years. I can learn the basics of real estate (raw land, mineral rights, contract law, etc.) because I have the wisdom and experience. Business is business. Cash flow is king. If cash is flowing, you are running a going concern 🙁
Yep! It’s the damn truth. There was only one choice in the survey! A fecking waste of time and money!
Why would a person such as moi say this? Some would look at me and rightfully call me a nutjob hypocrite. I have three fecking degrees! Yes, and I have utilized each one to benefit my life!
However, I went to learn specific things and then used the skills taught to run a successful business.
Today is a completely different situation. They no longer teach anything useful! Take medical school. They teach medical protocols which involve DEI and prescribing poisons made by satanists!
Take that $40,000-$100,000 seed money and start a business!
I started a business. Very few customers, but a business. (Actually, I think that makes me an artist.) They must teach some things in business school, probably in the very first year, that would help my cluelessness. (Not coincidentally, I have one of those someecards.com cards on my fridge that reads "I'd do anything to lose 10 lbs, except eat healthy and work out.")
🤣
My hair cutter’s son went into construction trade with a union backing. He’s only in his 20’s and buying a house and driving nice vehicles. My grandson is going into plant sciences. Huge college cost at a top university on the East coast. Please, pretty please, tell me that the future is “Plants”. (We’ve been through the “Plastics” thingy).
"Regenerative Farming"
If the "Plant Sciences" revolves around that, it's a good, no, rephrase, GREAT thing.
Something that RFK Jr. would approve of, as well as the rest of humanity and the wild kingdom.
Food with no poisons
Natural way of doing things
How plants help one another (Carrots really do love tomatoes in a garden!)
How plants ward off pests and weeds
How not to make the living soil into just dirt
**God's medicines**
If the "Plant Sciences" is all about how to turn a perfectly good green grape into a rainbow one, ditch the schoolin' and go for a trade!
I love this. If we know how to grow our own healthy food and repair the soil we know a lot about biology (and all the systems related to plants) and survival. Bonus: The connection to Nature is a connection to God.
Thinkin' we DO know how, we just forgot for convenience sake.
Also thinkin' that "forgetfulness" was brought on by Big Food, Big Ag, Big Pharma, Big Money and schools that don't educate, they indoctrinate or promote memorizing as learning!
They've been teaching WHAT to think, not HOW to think.
Back to the Basics.
What makes dirt soil?
Cow poop! Chicken poop. Sheep poop! (The best actually as no weed seeds get through THAT system!)
Yep, I said it.
Poop.
LOL
Ha ha! For sure. Should be "once we remember how"! All part of the awakening.
My spouse and I are college grads. Mandatory if you want to be a teacher. My kids are also college grads. One is a teacher also and the other has his own business and works remote. He is doing better financially than all three of us put together lol. College was a blast when I went back in the 80’s. There was no DEI, we paid no mind to politics, no protests or riots. Just some of the best times of my life with crazy fun memories. My son hated it but met his future wife there. My daughter made life long friends. Both escaped, barely, the brainwashing liberal professors who only knew to spew racist shit but couldn’t operate a standard projector or Smartboard LOL.
One of my favorite college grifts comes out of the alumni office, who after collecting all your book and tuition money over 4plus years, will track you down no matter how many times you move and demand more of your money in annual donations. Fo what reason? I don’t know. It has something to do with loyalty to your alma mater that leads you to continue sending your money to them.
We moved to a new house 2 years after my daughter graduated from college. SHE gets mail at our new address. She's never lived here. Yet she gets mail here from them (and she gets the SAME mail at her address) regularly.
I wouldn’t put it past them to figure a way to collect twice. Once, from grateful parents, the other from a grateful graduate.
I chose "other" as I couldn't fit my response easily in the other categories. I believe about 50% of students in college do not need to be. But it is a choice each person and family needs to make based on what's important to them.
"Plumbers can charge $300 just to jiggle a handle, while liberal arts grads are Googling “entry-level jobs that don’t require experience, skills, or hope.”
The useless Columbia Harvard Ivy league Stanford garbage politically correct DEI degrees get them what they deserve; $15.00 dollar jobs serving latte capucchinos at Starbucks or some other wizard coffee palace.
You are spot on; trades, overall, make more money, have much less debt and are needed everywhere.
Wake up people; heed the musings of Jenna.
Respectfully.
The most materially successful young person I know is an under-30 homeowner...and HVAC guy with his gas-fitter license.
My granddaughter’s degree was in worship music. She now works in the mail room at the college.
At least she has a job!
I voted Other. I have thought for some time now that a college degree has become the equivalent in value to what a high school degree was when I was young. Except the high school degree could be obtained at taxpayers' expense. It's criminal that middle class families (including now grandparents) are shelling out large sums of money for a degree that doesn't prepare a young adult to support themselves. And please add to the list of costs of college, that the credit card companies prey on the students and start them out of the gate with credit card debt. I like the idea of a young person having the option to sit down with parents and figure out which route would best help them take care of themselves in the world and hopefully it will also be something they enjoy doing. But also to know that we no longer are a world where you have to pick one profession for life. Although to the latter point, I've found that it's difficult to change without experience, which you can only get by working in the field that you'd like to enter! When I was 18, I just walked door-to-door and asked at nearby businesses if they were hiring. I learned on the job and the more aptitude and willingness I showed, the more responsibility they gave me. I have a friend who landed in her line of work the same way. Probably got brought on to the business by a friend's recommendation. And I do have a Bachelor's degree - never thought about the origin of that before you mentioned it, Jenna! Anyway, when I was young, many professional environments required it. It's not my generation's world anymore - the young people have new adaptations to make and we can't impose our generation's ideas about the pathway - but we can help with guidance on work ethic, discipline, ingenuity, respect, teamwork, etc., which are building blocks to caring for yourself in the business world.
Happy Friday everyone! It's a damn shame that this is what college degrees have come down to. Just a ticket into the soulless corporate world.
Both my wife and I have careers that required college degrees, especially my wife that is a veterinarian, so it's difficult not to worry about our childrens' futures and how they are going to navigate this ever-changing crazy landscape. What if one or both of them want to be doctors but don't want to put themselves through corporate educational indoctrination and poisonous shots? It is becoming exceedingly more difficult to keep your soul while living in this upside down system.
Hopefully we can steer this ship back into the right direction. I think we can with enough of us pushing back with our light. Thanks for the laughs as always and have a great weekend! 🤗
I was just asked to write another vaccine exemption for one of my daughter’s friends in nursing school. The irony is, the hospital where she is doing rounds no longer requires the Covid shot, but she must be up-to-date on everything else and thankfully has forsaken the whole sorry lot of them. Just crazy of all the places still pushing this poison… 🤬
It's blood boiling! It's also ironic that they are asking a writer instead of a doctor for a vaccine exemption lol. And the phrase "up-to-date" for these shots as if they are just another social requirement like our mortgage payments and credit card debt. Shoot me!
"For decades, the punchline of the wasted-degree joke was the meathead majoring in underwater basket weaving." Absolutely, back in the day I heard it used too many times to count!
A friend’s son, always a pretty poor student, is now an underwater welder. He owns his own home, and drives a nice truck.
I guess underwater basketweaving pays off after all.
That's what I told myself when I wrote out the multiple-thousands check to the roofers a few days ago: "I was almost certainly a better student."
Further thoughts: https://davidnelson486593.substack.com/p/success-has-gone-to-my-head
🤣
I am a self-taught hairstylist. I have been cutting my husband‘s hair for almost 30 years and my daughters’ for more than 20… I justify ALL SORTS of purchases with the “money I’ve saved us”🤣
Funny thing, when I was homeschooling my three, we’d see guys sweating like oxen doing road work. In the south. In July. I kind of regret doing this but I’d usually say something to the kids along the lines of, “THOSE poor guys should’ve paid more attention in class. They’re wishing they’d turned in all their homework so they could work in the AC.”
The roofers who did my roof started at 7:30am and were done and cleaned up by 11:30am. I never got a full count, but there were somewhere around 12 on the crew. Owners were right there with them. The entire crew was of Hispanic descent, but the foreman was a Mexican who'd been here for 25 years. The owners all said it'd been a long time since they'd seen a "white boy" willing to work that hard. In my 20s, I did hard work like that in the oil field and I sensed the same ethos in this crew: "Yes, it's hard, but if we don't do our part, it'll just make it harder for everyone else, so let's ALL work hard and get this sumbitch OVER with!"
With, please God, millions leaving, "opportunities" for soul-satisfying "hard" work will abound. The oil field brought me down to earth about going back to college to study something "real." (I screwed it up of course. ;^) )
I wonder if we have the same friend. His son is doing extremely well in the underwater welding business. Another friend’s son in underwater photography. They always find their way ☺️.